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John and I discuss the grape varietals, wines, producers of Umbria. We also talk about the history, food and culture of this region in Italy. Exploring the regions of Italy and the great wines that are produced is exciting as a wine lover. Umbria does not disappoint, a small region with a small production but they have some fantastic wines that are worth exploring.
[Music] hey everyone welcome to another episode of food wine and whiskey in your own backyard I am your host Rob and joining me today back on the show for another appearance and and this gentleman is great is John foda John how you doing good man how’s it going good to be back yeah good to have you back just so the listeners you know Johnny you’ve been on a couple times but just to refresh their their memory people who maybe haven’t heard the previous episodes yet but tell everybody about uh who you are tusk and Vines what you do just give them a little recap of of John foda yeah sure I’m a independent uh wine journalist covering uh Italy uh and with a focus uh on Tuscany um but do cover all all parts of Italy as we’re going to talk about you know Umbria today so uh yeah all my content goes out through uh social media and is on my website at john.com yeah and john.com takes you to his website which is actually called Tuscan Vines which is a great resource for Italian wines great resource for um recipes that go with the wines that uh you critique John and cover in your your articles um and the one thing I like about what you do with wines you know we see so many wine critics that uh you know we’ll line up a few bottles take sips of each give them a grade and move on where you really study the wine I mean you you might taste it that way but you’re also going to taste it with food and taste it at certain times and you really dive into analyzing these wines to really give them a fair critique definitely I mean and that’s you know that is the um the essence of Italian wine anyway especially the wines we’re going to talk about today I mean I can’t imagine um really enjoying wines like like sagrantino based wines you know without food it just would be um you know not something I would you know think of doing yeah absolutely well you mentioned it we are diving into Umbria today and I I’m excited to do this I think John you tell me when you talk to most people who are you know wanting to get into and explore Italian wines I think Tuscany is probably that big region that comes up initially with Kean Kean Classico reserve of those uh and maybe jump into brell’s but also pedmont I think gets a lot of of run too um but these these areas like Umbria there’s some fantastic wines made in these areas and I think they’re kind of under the radar a little bit a lot of people don’t know much about them and don’t know the wines that are being produced there which they make some fantastic wines yeah they definitely do and and you’re right I mean I think um you know in terms of Umbria I always kind of um think about it as like a poor man’s Tuscany um you know and the first time I ever went to Italy um I went to I spent a lot of time in Umbria um after having been in tuskany and I was like wow you know it’s really not much different you know and and you know the town of Cortona and the town of Montano which which sit in Tuscany but very close to the border of Umbria so when you when you cross over you know you don’t really notice any difference and you know the hilltowns are just as picturesque uh you know the food is just as good the wine can be just as good and and it’s just like um you know when you when you when you cross the border and it’s you know not Tuscany um it’s suddenly a lot cheaper you know it’s like when you when you have a Napa Cabernet and then you find a Cabernet that’s just right across the border yeah and it’s all of a sudden you know $50 less but it’s probably just as you see a lot of that with Umbria definitely one thing you know I did a little research on on umbrea trying to get a little bit more knowledgeable on this region uh never being to to Italy uh I didn’t realize that this is the only region in Italy that is landlocked does not have part of its border to some Coast that was interesting to me yep yep that’s right so they call it the the green heart of Italy that’s what Omri is called because it it produces a lot of ital’s uh grains and wheat and uh rice and in addition obviously to wine and other crops but it’s uh it’s kind of like the Bread Basket you know like like Kansas and Nebraska are for the United States but there’s uh there’s definitely uh you know right smack in the middle like you said so it’s the uh it’s the heart of Italy I also heard that it’s the uh the black truffle capital of the world I mean they produce black truffles like you wouldn’t believe believe yeah they do and they have them uh they’re everywhere you know there’s a uh there’s a little uh a little town it’s called castellon deago um and it sits on a Promontory that juts out into um um the lake there um and the town is basically two streets there’s like one Street in and then you get to the main Piaza and then the Second Street takes you out to the Fort which looks over the lake so then you just turn around and come down the other Street that takes you back to the parking lot and there’s shops on both streets and they sell everything you could possibly imagine from a food group and all of it is laced with black truffles you can buy the truffles you can buy you know sausages and sadas with black truffle you can buy pastas you can buy cheeses and you can just you can just smell it the entire way it’s really pretty wild I mean they’re now they’re not you know super uh sought after like you know piedmont’s you know white truffles could be you know which are only um only in the winter um but the uh the black ones they have there are the you know in the Autumn and in the summer they get them so wow that’s pretty cool the other thing that I thought was very interesting about uh Umbria was I read an article that was talking about uh it was kind of the area that got frozen time because of the salt Wars it didn’t get to experience and and really take part in the Renaissance that happened in Florence and in cities of Tuscany um because of this salt War I guess they they obviously lost that that battle and and suffered because of it yeah I mean that’s what what people I think you know probably don’t understand you know as a as a unified country the United States is actually older than Italy you know Italy has only been unified as a as one nation I think for the past you know hundred and something years so you know there was always a collection of you know different kind of States you know and and the the papal state in Rome was obviously one of the most significant ones um you know when the medi family were um running Tuscany or Florence really um but there were always battles between you know Umbria and and Sienna and and you know Monto Chino and monano that’s why all these towns you know they’re they’re they all have forts they’re all walled cities and they’re all on tops of Hills that’s that’s by Design you know because that’s a great place to be able to defend sure you know from a military standpoint and to see the enemy coming from you know miles and miles away yeah makes perect sense you know I think the uh the salt war with uh with umbrea was uh a lot of had it had a lot to do with the Papal States um and you know of course taxation on salt that you know the umbrians didn’t uh didn’t like uh and although it’s it’s kind of steeped in I don’t know folklore is the is the right word or if it’s just more pragmatism but that’s why in in Tuscany and in Italy um you don’t have any you won’t find any salt in the bread the bread is always almost always unsalted now the real reason for that supposedly is that the Italians will tell you well the only reason that’s true is because we don’t just sit down and have bread and butter you know they don’t do that in Italy when they have the bread they’re usually eating it with uh you know sasat or or cheese something that is already very solvid so that’s why they do that but if you know if you’re an American and you’ve never been there and you you go into the restaurant and they and they put a little basket of bread on your table and you taste it you’re like wow this isn’t you know this isn’t good you know it doesn’t have any flavor but uh it’s just that’s again it’s a cultural thing and and you have to understand you know how they use it that’s a great point but I didn’t know that and that makes sense though when you talk about pairing it with a saltier cheese or meat or something like that um the last thing I want to touch on just kind of about Umbria and their culture and what they’re known for uh apparently they’re they’re very well known for lagoons as well beans yep yep yeah I had a um a producer a while back he um he had contacted me and said hey you know can you can you taste my wines and write an article and I was like sure I’m happy to do it and he had um his Vineyards were right along they weren’t far from that town I just mentioned before castellona Delo and you know we were talking about that and and that town sits the the Lo logo is Lake so the lake is um Lake trano and his wines are are his Vineyards border the lake just to the south of town but he also produces uh a ton of white white beans you know uman beans and he sent me a bag of those uh and it really is is pretty Artisan product you know I followed the instructions on the bag and it took them I think like well I had to soak them obviously the night before but I think it took them like a half an hour to to simmer and cook they were really really hard but they were you know really flavorful it’s definitely definitely a difference when you know you’re used to a canned Bean now is it a white bean if I’m remembering right that’s in your bean and shrimp recipe that’s on your website yep yep absolutely that’s what I thought and man I’ll tell everybody if if you go check out you got lots of good recipes but that one is one of my favorites that is a fantastic dish big hit when we had it at a dinner party one night yeah that is a that is a favorite every time I make it people love it and and and and people ask me for the recipe I should put that in one of my uh one of my newsletters one one of these times soon yeah you should and I liked it John because you know people here in the states anyway don’t think of beans and shrimp as a dish we’re going to eat together you know they don’t they don’t put a correlation between the two and they looked at me kind of funny when I was making it and people were standing around we were having a little wine I’m telling them what we’re making and they’re like really and uh once it got done and served Ian I it got gobbled up pretty quick and everybody was like okay where’d you get that recipe that’s fantastic so I mean it’s just a a fun dish for that reason as well it kind of throws people off with beans and shrimp what the hell are you doing beans and shrimp yeah right yeah so that was fun kind of like a surf and turf right yeah poor man’s Poor Man’s surf and turf you know it it probably is you know the the central Italian food you know they call it peasant food and and maybe there’s a little adaptation there because I I wouldn’t imagine they they get shrimp too often because that wouldn’t be uh inexpensive but you know historic now of course they do that that seems to be you tell me if I’m wrong but that seems to be kind of the the way it is throughout all of Italy I mean the the to me the what I find the more popular dishes are what were the simpler kind of what ingredients we have two or three four Poor Man’s foods like the the four pastas of RS things like that you know these beans and shrimp things like things they could just get their hand they were simple dishes but today we look at those as kind of the Staples of Italian eating right that’s right I mean everything in Italy you know has crazy historical stories behind it you know and whether it’s folklore or you know like you mentioned the pastas of Rome you know you start with uh with catcho a Pepe right and it’s so that’s just pepper cheese and pasta so the The Legend there is they used to have a hard cheese and they used to have the black pepper and the Shepherds you know would go up into the hills you know with their sheep and their goats and have no way to cook so they used to pack those two things in their backpacks because it wouldn’t spoil it didn’t need refrigeration and then they would make you know the pasta up there you know with water and that’s what they had you know pasta catch Pepe is pepper and cheese so then if you have that and you throw eggs into it you get carbonara and if you have that and you add you know Guan chal and you add tomato then you have amatriciana you know so all those they’re all kind of you know one mother group of pastas uh but they always have you know historical legendary Tales behind them yeah I and I think that’s great I think that’s something I really enjoy about the the culture in the history of Italy is is learning all these kind of things uh about the country and and their culture all right John and even still today you know the Italians they use they’re still very much um using what was what’s in season you know and now I don’t know if that’s because they just don’t you know get access to the things or if it’s just the way they prefer to do it but I mean you know when I was in Italy the first time I ever went obviously it was summer and you I was curious you know to taste the broccoli Rob that they have there um and compare it to here which is broccoli Rob is traditionally a winter vegetable when I was a boy my mother always used to make it during the winter and I never realized you know back then it was like oh we don’t have that in the summer it isn’t in season so when I was in Italy no no chance to find it you know there there was nowhere you were going to get it anywhere where I was cuz it was a it’s a winter vegetable you know we had peas it was you know late spring early summer we had peas zucchini were everywhere I mean in every dish zucchini and almost every way you could cook it you know sliced sauted fried you know with the flowers you know only the flowers just we got sick of zucchini frankly but yeah I bet that’s just how it’s done that’s just how they eat well we we’ll we’ll make a little tease on uh Rome uh you know maybe at some point will cover that that area laio uh did I say that right how do you say that region for wine L laio latzio um I remembered when I was kind of looking at that region as well for a while Italy almost lost uh pasta they you know it got to a point where they didn’t have any more wheat to make pasta and I think that’ be a fun fun story to cover uh when we cover that region that was interesting to me didn’t realize that being such a staple of their their Cuisine uh to realize that one period of time not that long ago uh they almost lost that for good yeah I can’t imagine that either frankly all right grape varietals of Umbria that’s what we’re here for we’re going to talk about the wines I think it was great to give a little background on that country let people kind of get familiar what that little area is all about but uh we’re here to talk about the great wines that they produce and there are some really good wines that come out of this region so grape varietals John let’s start with whites yeah um so the um I think the biggest white um the biggest white wine that you’ll get in Oma um is orvietto you so that’s the the docg um you know name of the area where the whites come from um you know there’s a great wine you know they’re they’re a little bit hard to find you know I think here in the um in the US because I think it’s it’s a little bit difficult for people to kind of grasp but the big producer uh antinori um has a really nice state in Umbria called Campo Grande and and they make a very reliable orvietto so orvietto is just um you know oreto Classico kind of like um Kean Classico it has its defined region um and it’s and it’s based almost entirely on the tabano grape so now that’s not it may or may not be the same thing as a grape that you would know as tabano tocana um there’s different kinds of trano um so um Umbria is I’m sorry not Umbria oreto is is based solely on the trano gra oh it is okay I thought it it was made with also with the uh gretto grape greo GRE okay I’m I’m going to destroy these uh pronunciations it actually I I I don’t know if that’s the case it might things may have changed um I can’t even tell you the last time I’ve had an oret though I could probably find one if I looked but it is just it really is kind of amazing you know that they’re not um I I guess the only thing I could say to explain it is it’s probably they’re they’re destined for you know mostly local consumption yeah that’s that’s kind of what I when I what I found and kind of looking into them was that they’re locally and uh and they do send a lot to Australia which it seems like Australia gets a lot of uh European wines really yeah seem that way anyway you know I I’m yeah hey I guess I mean all they have down there is giras right and you get sick of drinking that after a while yeah no kidding okay so Triano spino do you know that one see that’s and that’s what I’m saying that that’s another one okay now that is a very see that’s you know trevano spolo is a much more um I’ll say substantial grape than tabano Toscano I mean they’re all the trebbiano grape right so they’re all within the same family they’re just different kind of clones um trebanos spolo is the uh grape that’s responsible for tabarini white wine called ad arando and at Armando if your listeners want to grab that that gets is regular regular rated treier by gambero Roso it’s a wonderful wonderful white wine and it’s even you know a little aworthy um I’ve had whites um at Armando with uh with John Paulo tabarini a couple times that were five six seven years old you know so you don’t you don’t even really think about that when when you know most people oh white wine drink it young you know and and and that’s fine you know and and it’s there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that um because there’s always you know the next fresh vintage you know on the way but if you if you buy a few bottles and you stick one away and and you you kind of forget that it’s there um then I think you know maybe you’ll have a pleasant surprise you know two three or four years down the line that’s cool now when I did my research John I found that those were the only two white varietals grown in this area in Umbria the well I think those are probably the two major ones that are responsible you know for a for orvietto and B um I think your gretto is also in there which is used uh gretto is usually a um I think is usually Blended um but those are not you know umbrea probably to a lesser extent than Tuscany um is really not known you know for for their white lines okay they’re they’re all about the big big Reds that they have think so I mean I I don’t you know even up until a couple years ago you don’t really even think of you know Tuscany when you you don’t really think of white wines you know but I think vermentino has kind of had a a Renaissance veracha D jimano has had a Renaissance and there’s still also you know some some pretty pricey um chardonay that are grown in Tuscany um but it’s just not something that people you know typically think of yeah you you just gave me a bit more information I did not realize any Chardonnay was grown in in Tuscany oh yeah I just uh and there was one that I just reviewed on my last Tuscan Snips article had a had an Italian chardonay in there from Tuscany oh wow is that more towards the coast I’m guessing they they’re growing that uh it wasn’t toward the coast it was way it was way up north in Kean classical the W um but very very very high elevation Vineyard so it stays very cool yeah um and then you also have even so on Blanc there as well wow okay I did not realize that either we we like the you know you know um what do you call it tanut deoria yeah yeah they make a very uh pricey so on block I mean it’s probably like 80 or 90 bucks really yeah yeah so I’m guessing at that price it’s age worthy well I don’t know it’s a long time since I tasted it I mean you know I think it would probably be age worthy I’ve never I’ve never put one away that that’s awful expensive I know some high-end Napa producers that you know they get into the $40 $50 range and then that’s pretty pricey but 80 bucks for savan Blanc that’s a yeah steep that’s real steep yeah I mean I you know again if you’re talking about something like that I’d rather spend the money on you know you can buy you could almost get two bottles of Brello for that money yeah exactly two bottles of that or if you want to stay in this region you can get to some of the red wines they offer that are big and bad yeah well that that is there anything else in the whes that you want to you know inform people on or let them know or or something that we need to touch on before we move to these red varietals no I think it I think it just would be that um you know if they want to uh if they want to kind of get a feel for it um I would definitely try to check out um orvietto Classico stick with Classico um there’s probably I don’t there used to be oreto that wasn’t Classico I’m not sure if it is anymore when it after the uh after it got promoted to a docg region I think that might have gone away but um you know it’s it’s uh it’s just a I mean it’s probably 10 or 12 bucks you know and it it would give you a and that would be a great wine to have with the shrimp and beans you know as a as a starter course you know just something like that very simple that’s great information and I I that’s the only wine that I’ve seen that says throughout the us if you’re going to find one you’re exactly right that’s the the orvietto is the only one that I’ve seen where they say you should be able to find this one in the US uh and that was it so definitely worth I’m going to look for it I’ll make the beans again and try that out that should be pretty good let’s jump into the Reds um what I found John was there were three main varietal that are uh grown in this area one is the you know the Godfather of them all but uh the cornetta the sanasi and then the sagrantino are the three main grapes is is that about right other than maybe just some table grapes that are grown to make table wine or something like that right right no I mean I would have to tell you when you mention that to me I had to go look at up I had never heard of what corneto was um and there really wasn’t a lot written about that um I’ve never heard of that or seen that as a wine I know they might make it into a sweet dessert wine that’s what it says it’s typically a sweet wine but I mean they make sweet wine out of sagrantino too you know they call it sagrantino Pito uh so that’s probably why uh it’s probably doesn’t have much of a following but I think what people may not realize um again because it’s Umbria and they just think well you know we we’ve crossed the border from Tuscany so now it’s different but the most widely planted grape in umri is sanes uh you know ahead of everything else so um the wines like I said before they can be similar um you know if you’ve got you know if you’ve got a a and what we’ll talk about this you know as you move it along but if you uh we talk about um Monta Falco Roso uh that’s a a great you know kind of mid midterm seling wine early drinking wine that’s based almost you know well it’s definitely based in San predominantly um and you know people just don’t realize that I think yeah and and to be honest with you my mindset was I was going okay well San OAS is there listed as a gra but surely they’re not trying to compete with Tuscany I mean when you talk about Tuscany and Kean and brelo and sanas is King there and that’s where everybody thinks hey if you say sanasi where you getting that they’re going to say say Tuscan wine right um but do they use it so they do make a lot of 100% Sanu vases or 90% with maybe some 80 90% And they they blend it with some other local grapes or maybe not not in the um not in the um uh denominated wine regions so not within Monta Falco Roso or anything so if they they they may make it you know like it’s similar to the concept of the super TUS right if the producer wants to make a wine that’s 100% s they can but it may not necessarily fall within the doc regulations okay so do you know how they use sanas is it for blending or how how are they do do you see anything really bottled that comes out of umbrea sanesi in just sanesi yeah oh I think there’s a uh there’s a wine well the one of The Producers is is lungarotti um I think they make a and there’s also Lamborghini Believe It or Not which really is the uh which is the which is the Lamborghini family you know from the car uh so I think they have a wine no I’m just looking now at my notes there’s a wine that they make called Trace scone is 50% San ASA 50% real low so okay you know then there’s a wine they have a wine called camp Leon which is um similar blend so I don’t know if there is a 100% San vay that that people would know um they do tend to blend so what are the rules do you do you know and I may be hitting you with something that’s tough to answer but to to classify them as a doc or docg to put them under those how do they do can they use the Mero or or do these have to go as an IGT yes and no so two two cases if we’re going to go there so there’s the docg regulations for sagrantino and they’re simple right the bottle that you have that I can see on your screen sagrantino Monta Falco has to be 100% sagrantino no blending allowed and it’s a docg wine period that’s the end and unlike you know bolo or Brunello or even Veno no where where there’s another tier for a Reserva so you could have a Brello Reserva or a Baro Reserva no such um you know language exists for sagrantino there’s no such thing as a sagrantino reserve it’s just sagrantino 100% sagrantino grap grown you know in and around the commune of um the village of Monta Falco and there’s a few other um a few other communes there too near Bania um where um where the grapes can come from but they’re all you know very close to within Monta Falco so I mean the sagrantino docg is is one of the smallest um docg areas in all of Italy I think combined it’s about 650 hectares of Vineyards so I mean that’s that’s very very small and I think there are you know most of the producers are very small um Family producers for sagrantino I think there’s only about 25 or 30 um there could be a few more now okay well that that gets us into sagrantino and that that’s kind of the like we said the the the the Godfather of The Grapes of Umbria this is what if you ask what the region was known for this would this would be the grape that it’s known for the wines that they produce from this grape yeah it really is I mean that’s that’s where they hang their hat um you know up up north next closer to um peruja is where your orvietto Classico area comes from that’s you know a fairly good distance away from Monta falo so they’ve got the white when you go down when you start talking about red wines you know in my opinion at least you you are talking about Monta Falco and you’re talking about sagrantino so to be sagrantino that wine has to be aged for 36 months for three years before it can be released and at least 12 of those months has to be aged in Oak uh and then it can be released so right now I think you’re seeing I don’t know if a lot of producers made a 14 so you that vintage that you mentioned before is a 2013 right that’s probably yeah that’s probably the most current vintage uh on the market right now really what I tend to see um is um producers tend to hold their wines even longer than than they need to and you know part of the reason for that I think is the sagrantino it has um the highest polyphenols of any wine even more than Cabernet and you can age age that wine when when it’s released you know the wine can be almost um black in color you know super super super dark yeah I was going to have you touch on that because when people are hearing us talk about the the sagrantino grape uh just to put it in perspective this is a this is a big boy this is a big hitter this is a I mean the tannin on this thing thick skinned when when people think about you know Napa grapes and they think about things like that or nebiolo this is right up there with them this is can age for quite a long time oh I I think it has to age for quite a long time I mean I probably have combined you know across a couple number of producers maybe a case and a half or two cases of sagrantino in my seller and most of them are from 2008 and maybe Seven 8 10 and 11 I haven’t bought anything more recent than that and you know the eights um there’s a wine that um the winery is is arnal Arnaldo capry um but the but the owner now who runs it is is his son Marco capry and he makes a wine called sagrantino 25 Ani 20 25 years uh it was the um to commemorate their 25th you know vintage and that wine I’ve tasted it can be really great but I I don’t know if I’ve ever really actually had one yet that I thought was at Peak you know or ready to drink that it is so monstrously tanic so I know I have the 2008 and maybe even the 2005 in my cell sitting there and you can it’s almost like they don’t ever go over the hill so you just you got to open them you got to let them age you got to open them you got to decant them you know make a make a a short rib or or a big you know nice big steak Char it up that’s where you need to get the you know you need to have some kind of fat to cut those tannins but there you are special wines you know they’re they’re winter wines you know I don’t know that you would want to you know grab them uh you know in the middle of July or August heat with a steak you know but definitely in the in the cooler cooler autumn and winter months we you mentioned that they have to be aged a minimum of 12 months in Oak do you do you find because of the tannins in the grape naturally uh that do they go much longer than that do do you find that producers are are leaving it in 18 24 months in in Oak I think some do yeah okay I mean I think what you know they I don’t know how much tannage you’re going to get from imparted from the oak if the producers is using a a large large barrel you know the slavonian oak you know the huge um you know they’re called Grande bate that they’re enormous barrels so we’re not talking about you know bars here like uh you would use you know in the French would use for Bordeaux um some producers definitely do that uh and if they put it in bar and I don’t think that they would um you know hold it in there too long um but there are a couple um a couple of wines I’ve had from various producers that I thought were just way too Oaky and and Chari you know that charie kind of flavor yeah um you know not unlike what you might find in a in like a bourbon at some point but I think you know that you don’t you don’t want to overdo it with this wine because the the grap skin is very thick and it has has a lot of natural tan into it already so it it is it’s it’s a difficult grape to farm for sure okay okay um and if you’re going to tell listeners that you know if you’re going to find uh a bottle of wine of sagrantino from Umbria it’s probably going to be a Monte Falco I mean that’s what typically is more common in the states I mean because it’s a small area it’s small produced but Monte falo seems to be the the one that that gets over here and you can find find it relatively easily of sagrantino of sagrantino or there some other that’ll be the only place it will come from okay yeah and and tell me this let’s let’s jump into uh from the red grapes let’s jump into Appalachians and uh producers um but you mentioned the uh caprari family uh araldo how you say araldo capry capry c yeah c a p r a i okay I I was reading an article where he was called the grandfather of Umbria wines of of sagrantino is what what’s the history there on him do do you know a little bit about that or a little bit about him I do I do I don’t know I didn’t know that he was called that or or if that was referring maybe to his father I don’t know maybe his father I’ve I’ve met Marco many times and and he’s actually a really nice guy um I think and let me just be clear yeah they were referencing araldo that makes sense because I think their Winery was um founded in 1971 um and I think it was um you know one of the first to really kind of put Monto Falco on the map and as that you know in that sense um they’re also um one of I’ll say one of the largest they might be the largest um in the docg now he has um almost 400 Acres of property which is enormous um considering you know some of these other producers they may have you know two or three hectar and that’s it wow you know but the when his father founded the winery it was only 12 acres um you know and he really brought it up to um you know the next level like I said he he put it on the map you know they’ve they’ve become certified biod uh biodynamic and and organic um and you know he grew the grew the property um from 12 acres um to 220 Acres of grapes although the the entire property is almost 400 Acres like I mentioned but he has you know beans Forest you know olive oil um and just you know Wilderness there as well um you know so he’s got almost 12 um accreditations from uh organic accreditations to the winery and they’ve been organic since 1988 oh wow okay yeah yeah and and like I said the article I was reading uh had mentioned him as being kind of the The Godfather of uh Monte Falco and putting sagarino in in that wine on the map somewhat globally you know really got it recognized I think and I think that had something to do with too in 2012 um he was named wine Winery of the Year by Wine Enthusiast magazine and that and he was on the cover you know so there was a lot to do with that and he’s also had his share of uh trayer awards from gamber Rosa so you know he is um you know a main player in the in both the consorcio Monta Falco but and and also in the region okay well let’s jump into some app Appalachians um let’s start with the doc and I did a little research and found that the ones I’ve listed John and I think I sent you a note they they said these are you know if you’re going to there were several Doc’s there but these were like the top four um the bottom or let me say it this way there was two whites and Two Reds that I listed the Monty fako Roso and the Roso D Tano were the two Reds that they said if you’re going to buy a wine those are the two kind of Doc’s you want to buy from for the whites it was was the and I never can say this right John the how do you say the white grape starts with the G gr gretto gretto gretto uh the or or vietto and then the the trebanos bolletino or the two whites okay they said there’s only two dogs in in Umbria and and the Sago yeah and they said you know if you’re going to buy from a docg it needs to be the the stino De Monte Monaco right and again just to you know to remind people of the what it guarantees you know just like rello just like any other docg it doesn’t it’s not a guarantee of quality right you know theoretically it it can it will be if the producer does things correctly but what it guarantees is that it’s coming from within that zone you know the Monta Falco Zone um it guarantees that it’s 100% sacrinoxia I was going to say it mention it matters that the quality of fruit as well I mean that’s a huge component of you know where’s the fruit coming from what’s their how are their Vines what whatever all of that plays a factor as well huge Factor yeah that’s every every wine maker I I speak to that they’ll always say that you know whether it’s the vineyard manager or the or the wine maker himself that’s doing that work with the fruit and the vineyard you know they always say you know when they bring me the fruit to the winery you know all I do is not to screw it up yeah yeah bring me the good food and my job is not to screw it up you know so you don’t make a you don’t make a good wine in the seller from Bad fruit yeah it can never happen well and the other thing I’d say is we never talk about vintages and go hey the wine maker this year had a great year man he really knocked it out of the park we say the fruit was so good this year and exactly yeah so that’s exactly right yeah it’s it’s always about the fruit um so who are some producers do you do you and I know it’s not a big region but when we start talking about you know Monte Falco uh you know the bottle that I have and it’s the only one I could find in my area I went to like I said four four different wine shops and this was the only one I could find that had any sagrantino and this was the only bottle left yeah in Houston you would think on the uh on the back of the bottle there does it say who the Importer is uh it is imported by uh Triana Imports in New New York plane view New York okay I know TR I’m just surprised you couldn’t find like uh um caprai I mean he that would you know he’s got one of the biggest Productions and I would think uh you should be able to find that well like I said only went to four places Houston’s a big place I’ll have to do a little more research but I wrote that one down because now you want me now you’ve got me wanting to go try to find that one yeah so before we go through what I would consider to be you know my favorite producers let’s just take one quick step back because you mentioned you know we mentioned that sagrantino has to be the docg 100% sagrantino so almost every producer and I would say everyone but I don’t want to make an absolute statement but I would imagine it’s probably true in addition to making sagrantino they make a monaka Roso okay so Monta Falco Roso um you know it it often kind of suffers from a little bit of an identity crisis because people think it’s like a younger uh sagrantino right you know mon you know monino makes a Brunello deino and then they have a Roso deino same grape 100% San of a but it’s just aged a little younger or aged a little less and typically from younger Vines so people want to kind of make that leap here when we’re talking about these two Vines but that’s not the case right so Monta Falco Roso uh legally under the docc rules is a blend it has to be a blend so it what it means is it has to be at least % sanes can’t be anything less than that so that’s the primary grape in the wine and then the producers typically um use about 15 to 20% sagrantino so kind of gives it a little bit more weight to the wine because you know we’ve talked about how large the sagrantino can be um but I think the typical blend is is 70% sanes 15% sagrantino and then 15% you know a lot of producers use Mero you know to kind of soften it um you could use some Cabernet you know you could probably use a few other grapes in there too but I think you know those are the ones that are most typical so that wine um you know sounds pretty good yeah it can be you know it can use a little bit um you know more approachable little drink you know drinkable early on uh but it it really has um you know what I would call it really can be a serious wine you know it isn’t just thought of it shouldn’t be just an afterthought is it still a year in oak or is it less than that I was just trying to look here okay well here here I want to make a comment while you’re looking that up I was going to ask you John about is sagrantino Blended with anything and I I said don’t ask that that’s a stupid question that’s too big and bold of a a wine and stands on its own and known for that reason there’s no way they blend that you know with something else but they sure do yeah I think it’s it’s they use it as a blending grade you know they don’t they don’t blend things with sag they sagrantino with things uh you know it’s kind of the way that’s probably completely splitting hairs but um you know I think you know if if we’re talking about drinking you know wines that are local you know the people in Mont Falco wouldn’t really have um you know any um anything to drink if they didn’t have you know something that was lighter than you know a sagrantino you can’t just drink sagrantino all the all the time they they’d run out of the of the Aged quality you know drink worthy bottles they’d be gone pretty quick so they got to wait a long time so the Roso comes in that’s what they drink yep all right that makes sense did you find anything on the Aging no my my computer is not behaving here and I don’t have it off the top of my head I thought I had written it down in my uh in my article and I’m sure I have but I just can’t find it I I I think what I could say is that it’s um you know it’s got to be probably I would say like 14 months uh it’s probably something they don’t age it for a long time yeah oh here we go and I was just making the assumption again when we talk about uh uh the Roso de moncino we talk about how it’s aged quite a bit you know the requirements for aging is quite a bit less so I was making an assumption which I shouldn’t on uh no I mean you know I don’t know exactly what the doc um regulations are but what I’m seeing here in just articles that I’ve written for example one of the producers that I happen to enjoy is called Antonelli he he his wine is 70% just exactly what I said 70% San ASA 15 sagrantino 15 Mero and he puts it in large Oak barrels where it spends three months then three months clarifying in cement and six months in Bottle before release so a year all toll okay you know so it’s meant to be put out earlier on the market you know you could really you know you make a nice pasta like what we were talking about before you make pasta with some black truffles some mushrooms the wine would go great with that you know you make some uh you know a pork stew or something like that or even a steak the wine can go great with that too you don’t need a big sagrantino all the time um you know so so let’s great option if if you were going to think about just hearing that aging process um I’m thinking you know when that Wine’s released probably what two to four years two to five years you want to drink that wine oh the monal Roso yeah sure yeah oh absolutely and I think you know you could definitely do that defin could you age it could you go 10 years on something like that I think you could try okay but there’s also a um there’s a Roso um Monta Falco Roso Reserva as well designation so and that’s just an extra year on the age yep an extra year on the age okay so I mean it could or could not be um you know another level of um you know better grapes um you know it could be um but it’s probably just a year older you know that that they’ve kept it in their seller a little longer than that well you shared with me one time John uh few podcasts back and I think it’s just great for people to really think about and and kind of understand when they’re talking about aging wine you have a rule for for aging wine kind of what it should be do you know what I’m talking about can you mention that again or do I need to give a little more information h no I’m not you I’m not sure what you’re referring to well aging wine versus and letting it continue to you know change and grow and develop versus oh I know what you mean yeah now you know that yeah so yeah I always think about it in this in this way you know people want to put Wines in their cell to to age them and the distinction I always make you know aging a wine um permits you know kind of uh natural processes in the wine to occur while you’re waiting to drink it so the Cannon soften um the the big you know almost bold boisterous fruit will soften a little bit and then you’ll gain those secondary nuances that you may not um you know perceive when the wine is really young you know you might get some you know mushroom and Earth and leather and and things like that so the differentiation I make is as opposed to a wine simply lasting in the Celler so in my mind aging a wine will improve it if that’s what you are aiming to do but you could put you know a a Napa Cabernet or a Brello in the cellar and say okay you know you know this wine is substantial enough and it’s stable enough and if I keep it cool it’s going to last you know five to eight years and it’ll still be drinkable but will it be better you know so especially Cabernet I mean my goodness you could keep a nap at Cabernet for 15 or 20 years it’s not going to spoil you know if you keep it cool it’s not going to spoil but will it will it improve I mean that’s a question for your own you know personal palet yeah and and I think it’s a great way to think about wine because you know to me you like to have a bottle for a little while if you like them you buy a few you want to have them to drink them but understanding that certain bottles you can drink because it’s not changing it’s lasting but it’s not changing but then there’s other bottles that it’s fun to you know buy a case of drink one when you get it make some notes and then you know maybe a year year and a half two years later drink another one and then you know and just kind of go through that Journey with the wine and continue to see and and uh experience how the bottles are changing at as they age in your seller yeah and that’s right I mean the the only way to do that is to you know either have someone with a really deep seller that you’re friends with or just to do it yourself I mean it takes patience but when you you know I had the fortune you know many years ago to to be friends and and get together with a bunch of people that had you know you know they were a little bit older than me at the time so they had deeper Sellers and they were pulling out you know brunellos that were 15 years old or or bordeau that were 30 and 40 years old and and it was an eye opener for me I was like wow you know this is what you know I can do you know this is what my wines can become if if I can keep my hands off of them so in this sense that that’s the problem right I mean everything costs money and you have to be able to you know you buy wine and you put it away but you still have to buy wine to drink right I me you still need something to drink you know I made the comment many times I go down in my cellar and there’s several hundred bottles of wine and I say to my wife I got I got nothing to drink and she’s like what are you talking about you’ve got nothing to drink you know there’s hundreds of bottles of wine here it’s like yeah but they’re not ready you know I know what I’m trying to do you know so yeah I mean it’s it’s definitely um it’s definitely a challenge yeah but having said all that I would much rather catch a wine on the younger side than than wait too long and have it just be uh you know faded and and not very nice no I’m with you there and and I think most people would agree with that uh yeah so try you know try them younger and and decant them that that’s all see what happens well okay that was a great uh I just love that when you when you first told me that John about wines it made me really start to think about what I have in my my my seller and you know kind of what I can drink now and what is changing what’s not changing and just kind of rethink how I’m approaching my wine so I just like how you said that um let’s jump jump into producers now I mean we have uh you have some that you really like go ahead and share those with us and people can make some notes and and maybe start looking for some of these or let me ask you this a lot of people think that uh you know you’re going to mention some producers even if they can’t find them in their their area learning on Zoom all the zooms that you do let me just say that to everybody get connected with John on social media go to his website and get connected you are doing some great things with uh wine producers in Italy where they’re coming on on a regular basis you know not every week but it’s consistently happening uh where they’re coming on and talking about you know their wines uh this year past year whatever it’s just great education on these producers and I think people that aren’t as knowledgeable in Italian wines but want to explore and really start to enjoy them you’re you’re providing a great resource to really get in that you know not just reading about it from a book but or or watching a YouTube video but actually getting to hear uh from The Producers themselves what they’re actually doing they get into their library and you know they they they really talk about some cool stuff or able to ask questions and do things so um I’m just going to tell people they need to jump on and do that for sure um but when when people start thinking about Italian wines uh it’s it’s like I we we said it at the beginning they they typically go to pedmont or Tuscany or somewhere that has that big Global reputation and really globally puts out a lot of wines from from those regions Umbria is not one of those so when you mention these producers we found out through your zooms you can get shipped wine from Italy to your door I mean a lot of people think you have to be able to find it in the states and that’s not necessarily true now I might be kind of talking a little bit you know correct me John if you need to are there some rules or parameters that you need to kind of play but for the most part you can get wine from Italy I I don’t know what the parameters are to be honest with you and if if there are any I don’t I’m they’re transparent to me because I just like you said they they’ll ship you know now I I’ve done it you know before the pandemic but now during the pandemic where these these places are you know I won’t say they’re struggling to to survive but um they’re certainly not flourishing like they they so they’re more more than willing to um you know get some sales any way they can and and you know I wrote an article about that um it’s called um it’s on the bottom of my website it’s one of the um editor picks it was a great article yeah I mean the idea was just to bring back you know my memories and that’s what it’s called it’s it’s called a flood of memories and and um you know there’s several ways in there that that people can help but you know there are a lot of um a lot of producers that that have e stores and some of the ones that don’t even have e stores will just interact with you through through email um you know on March 2st I’m doing the zoom with with Laura Gray from from She’s the estate manager of ill paleton in moncino um you know they don’t have a traditional eore but um you know she’s putting packages together for the people that attend the call and she’ll just you know arrange everything you know via email they’ll send you an invoice um she uses uh some kind of payment exchange site that I can’t remember the name of but it’s it’s similar to PayPal so it’s all secure um you know there are tons of them you know I’ve I’ve and that and it’s not just the producers you know you can you can search if you use wine Searcher you know the app or or win searcher.com to look for wines and you you filter on um not the us but just the worldwide um you’ll find Italian enota that come up a lot of them will do worldwide delivery now you have to look some of them um you know the shipping can be ridiculous but um hey go in with some friends right yeah you can do that you can split or you can you know but and you you kind of have to know what you’re buying because there are things you can find the pricing can be very weird like you know I can find let’s say a$ 60 or $70 bottle of Brunello here in the states I might be able to find it over there for 25 or 30 Euro you know but sometimes the pricing may be you know equivalent so you have to look what you’re buying but I mean you can you can actually save some money and and they’re happy to get the sale so by all means I would say go for it and that would be my first thing is you know if you can go to through the producer do that support them cut out the middleman so to speak you might not be able to all the time because maybe they you know but for the most part if it’s a wine a producer has and they still have some available go through them the other reason I like that John is I’ve I’ve had a bit of bad luck not not a tremendous amount but a bit of bad luck of ordering through um a wine merchant online and then getting bottles that uh you know I don’t know how they were handled and they ended up not being so good so uh I always feel a lot more comfortable when I’m dealing with the producer I know that they’ve you know handled these wines properly and and they’re going to ship them properly and to the shipping point I mean when we were doing the zooms with you over the summer if you bought wines The Producers were more than happy to you know make that transaction and hold the wines until the temperatures became where they should be to ship them to us so I mean they they really work with you and do a good job of servicing you on a wine P purchase right and the last time I ordered you know from uh from Danielle from Campo kenti he told me he’s like you know do you want to uh here’s the two prices for shipping I can send it by the sea or I can send it by the air you know and and you know he said either way he goes if it goes by by the Sea he goes it’s going to be refrigerated you know I have I have that worked out so it’s just a matter of you know how fast do you want them what do you want to pay for right but you know you’re 100% right I mean think of it when you’re when you when you’re paying a shipping right think of that as as just a little extra you know benefit that you’re getting because you’re you’re right especially like one of the things that these producers have been doing on these calls have been they’ve been offering wines from 2010 2008 2012 you know not just the regular wines but sometimes even the Reserva bottlings some of those wines are in such small production they’ve never left Italy you know but what you said is true you know those wines they’re not you know pulling them from some enotech in Italy they’re those wines have never left never left the estate they’ve never left the wine property so you’re getting perfect Providence yeah uh and and that’s worth you know if you’re gonna you know put these wines away you know lay them down in your seller that’s worth paying for you know absolutely 10 or 15 years that that’s worth paying for yep couldn’t agree more all right so having said all that and saying we can buy from the producers and that’s the way we should let’s jump into producers you mentioned uh anelli is the first one you mentioned that you’re a fan of yep I think you know in terms of who might be easiest to find in the United States um you know we could go that route I mean Antonelli is one um Arnaldo caprai is another um I love tabarini the guy that was on my you know Zoom um only two or three weeks ago was the last one we did I think that’s right and that was great because he he has you know High Wi-Fi in his wine seller and he was able to take us down into the seller how about that seller oh my gosh that seller was really cool yeah yeah he actually didn’t have the greatest connection as he thought he would have because there was a storm but it it still worked out really well but um you fun fun guy that guy’s crazy I mean I could see hanging out with him for a few days he is he’s nuts he really is he’s just ter he’s all he’s so much fun but he he is like an Energizer Bunny man and he never turns off never yeah so let’s see I’m just going to read a quick list I’m going to repeat a couple because I had these jotted down so paloa is one of them Bea he makes wonderful wines a little bit more expensive um his production is smaller uh he makes so many nice wines Cole Patron is another one uh Arnaldo capry Antonelli tabarini and also there’s a winery called peraya p r TI c a i a now what I like about them is peraya and tabarini share the same Consulting wine maker or share the same wine consultant so I find a peraya wines be very nice and then there’s also um a wine that had one of their wines uh the 2011 sagrantino was in the wine spectator uh top 100 it was in the top I want to say top 50 or 40 wines that year and it’s a it’s a little bit of a mouthful it’s called scotcha diav and um let me just see if I can I mean I know it’s uh scotcha diav actually me means uh chase away the devil okay and it is a uh there’s folklore there too like you wouldn’t imagine because um in Bania where is one of the communes near Mona Falco where the grapes can come from there were supposedly a witch there really yeah yeah and they had a local you know in in as this Legend goes they had brought in a a local uh like Shaman or or or something like that and to scare this woman away This Witch and um you know so they did that and then the winery was was formed so scotcha diav is spelled um S C A CCI a d a v l i and what’s really great about their wines is it’s very affordable I you could probably find them for under 40 bucks oh wow okay that’s great and it’s a little more um it’s not such it’s a little more restrained style so their wines might be you know a deep you know kind of a garnet or Ruby they they may not have the total black color um that that a lot of other wines have this is the first wine where I I’ve heard somebody describe it in in a black John and I’ve never had this so I think I need to wait a few years I think you would tell me that on this 13 too young to drink right now I would say yeah it definitely would be I’m just looking I don’t know I’m just scrolling My article because I know we talked about that one a little bit before Oh you know who who’s another one and this this wine is actually really nice as well is tanut Alura a l z a t r a and I mentioned that because you’ll probably start seeing more of that that’s actually the um czechy family’s Winery in Umbria um and that wine is just now being imported through a new US importer with east coast and Colorado presence so the distribution there should be a lot better and that one is always a doab carry almost every year um so that’s and again that will be the I just reviewed the 2012 I believe um it’s probably still on the front page of the website if you scroll down it was that recent and you know the um that was the wine that was sampled to me so again almost the current release the 2013 is about to be released um so this is this is an interesting quote you know I’ll I’ll just read it because we were talking about you know sagrantino so when I was with Andrea Cy once you know I asked know what made you want to you know leave Tuscany for Umbria and start producing sagrantino so he says Javan I love the challenge and the sagrantino grape is not one of the easiest to cultivate it Demands a fertile terrain with good soils the flowering phase of the vine is the most difficult and delicate part the vine has a tendency to get jumbled and Tangled and then the plant becomes a perfect sight for parasites and fungal disease for this reason the chots have to have ample air circulation and that is the key once the Integrity of the plant has been maintained the sagrantino grape gives great satisfaction with its incomparable polyphenolic composition but it’s always starting with the plants yeah so I just thought that was you know an interesting you know take on it but yeah you know we said it starts in the vineyard so he’s he’s boiling the vineyard down to PL to the Grapevine to the plant and I remember him talking about you know learning how to do that properly from his grandfather and him still doing that same technique today yep exactly exactly it was a that was a great Zoom I really enjoyed that guy yeah you know I might I I I’m I don’t want to have to you know repeat people but I I think that there are some favorites that people uh you know a lot of my readers and followers kind of like so um I might bring him back again I think it’ be worth it yeah yeah that was a fun Zoom I mean this is going to be the second time that Laura is coming on um on March 21st and then I think on April 11th I believe uh which is a Sunday if I’m correct is a is a new wine maker the wine maker from uh paa P Wines in Sardinia they’re one of the largest producers in Sardinia and he makes great wine he’ll be on on April 11th and and here’s what I like about your zooms now we get an extra hour I mean uh we get daylight savings so it’s going to be one my time your two your time yeah yeah just one and then Italy once Italy changes it’ll go back to normal right but for a little while you know I feel a more comfortable drinking a glass of wine at one than I did it you know getting on at a quarter to noon or you know right at noon so yeah yeah yeah but uh okay John if somebody were going to say okay look this has been a great podcast I’m I’m digging you know hearing about these uh satino wines and I want to try one but we just talked about you know what’s the age on these cuz I need to age for a while that you can drink if somebody were going to look to a producer and try to purchase one that they could take home cook that big nice piece of meat and have this wine with it what would be you know don’t get one any older than 2000 and what would you suggest look for one older and at retail yeah if you were going to say Rob yours is a 13 if you’re going to drink one get a 2010 or 2008 or what year would you say you know don’t drink it until it’s aged at least how many years I think again with the characteristics of the Vintage you could probably do well enough with a 2011 those were a little bit more a little more fleshy with the fruit um again I would you know I would still decant it for good you know two hours okay uh you know a 2008 you know if you could find one would definitely fit the bill um you know 2010 I wouldn’t touch just think of that like you you know brunellos that is a big structured bold vintage I think I would let that lie um you know and you know if they want to start um you know I would always say you know Pi pick up a mon Falco Roso and you know just see what you think of it you know it’s not going to be um you know it’ll taste like a s of aay but it’ll be different you know it’ll have a little more heft to it is is and those wines you know they shouldn’t be any more than you know 18 to maybe 2324 that would be on ey well it sounds like we need to try both of them and and that’s what I’m going to do but I’m I’m asking for the listeners but I’m also asking for me because looking at this region and talking to you about doing a show on them I definitely wanted to try it and and I when I saw this was a 13 in my mind I went I can drink that but now I’m finding out that uh to wait a little while and I’ll continue to look for something a little bit older so I can uh cuz I’m anxious to try this wine I mean here the cool things about it the you know I’m anxious to try it so anyway you’re helping the listeners and you’re helping me John I appreciate it there you go well thanks man this has been a fun show anything that you want to sum up umbre about I mean obviously let me ask you this people go to Italy you know they always want to go to Tuscany Venice they want to maybe get up north a little bit into pedmont would you say you know at some point Umbria is definitely worth visiting oh absolutely I mean you know what I think Umbria kind of puts you in the bucket of you know a smart traveler because like what you just said most people don’t want to go to Italy right and I tell I try to tell people this all the time because I say to them okay this is the first time you going to Italy and they say yes and I say okay I guarantee you you’re gonna love it and I guarantee you you’re going to go back so I’m not going to advise you to go Rome Florence Venice you know that’s a lot that’s what a lot of people want to do and they’re going oh we’re going to go for 10 days I’m going to say well you’re going to spend two days traveling you know by train or by air resign yourself to the fact that you will go back and shorten down your trip and I tell them I’m like you wouldn’t spend 10 days in the United States and go from New York to Miami Dallas and LA in 10 days you know why do that in Italy you know and you know who knows where we’re going to be when when all this ends you know I think you know travel will probably be expensive it’ll probably take up like crazy before it levels off but if you’re in Umbria you know and like I said I would challenge someone to be dropped you know from outer space into Umbria and tell me that you think you’re not in Tuscany you know Monta Falco is a great Hilltown you know peruja you know where where they have the perugina Candy Factory and and there’s a university there that is a great great town where and you know there’s the old old uh old side of it but there’s also the the more modern side of it where um you know jazz music and and lots of bars and restaurants and then you have you know for people who are are you know into it beyond the historical um aspect you know for Roman Catholics um you have a CCE there where St Francis is I mean and that is like a uh you know pilgrimage in itself uh you know it’s really something spectacular to see and and and when I went to a CCE I said it was literally the only town in Italy where I walked up to get into and walked out to walked up to get out you know the the there’s only one way in and one way out and but the H but the city is kind of sh is is on a hill you know it’s shaped like a bell curve sort of so when you go up the one side of it you actually leave the um parking lot where you park there’s actually escalators it’s the wildest thing because the escalators are carved into the side of these like Stony mountains so you just go up the escalator you don’t have a clue where the hell you’re going and the escalator ends you know on this Cobblestone path and you walk right up into one of the main streets as you’re just walking walking walking you’re going uphill the entire time and when you get to the crest of the Hill there’s still so much more to see so then you start going down the hill and when you when you say okay now we’re going to leave you have to walk up hill again but super super steep town uh and there’s so many you know great places there to see and the little towns like I mentioned when we started the castellon delago you can’t get more Charming in that place really can’t now when when people think about food and I know you know I was going to ask you they have great food there but they have great food all over Italy but when you think about dishes you know you think about Tuscany for a certain type of food you think about uh Rome for their type of food and thing is is there more similar to I’m guessing Tuscan style dishes and things like that it is it’s very similar okay um you know the pasta is very similar uh like I said you you might find um you know the truffles in it a little more in what you have and then um you know um castellon the logo is is on Logo tro tro lake is is one of the largest in Italy so uh around that area you know is a lot of seafood you know a lot of uh you know the lake gives a lot of food um you know that’s where it’s a little you know damper you get the the bean cultivation there uh but everywhere we went there it was uh trout trout from the lake um all kinds of fish come out of that Lake and it’s and it’s everywhere well John this has been a lot of fun talking about Umbria and you know like my wines that I like I like to find those small boutique type of wineries not the mass produ wines and finding these types of small areas that produce fantastic wines I think is a a great journey as well to look for those kind of places that are kind of kind of hidden somewhat and just not as well known and I think uh being able to expose people to these places and let them try something new experience something different which are still some fantastic wines I think those of us who love wine and kind of down that rabbit hole these are the things that we’re looking for yep oh absolutely absolutely well this has been a lot of fun John thanks for coming on what is it so uh we I don’t know I I don’t think we can drop a tease but we will have you back on do some more uh uh I I would like to do the Veno NOA as our next podcast just to let people know that that’ll be coming out that’s a great a great uh subject to do and and I’ve got uh you know a multi-art article coming out right now about those wines so it’ll it’ll it’ll Dov tail nicely with that okay perfect that’ll be our next show and looking forward to doing that John thanks again for coming on um thank you everybody for listen to this episode of food wine and whiskey in your own backyard and until our next episode enjoy your next pour [Music]