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John Fodera is back on the show and on this episode we have a conversation on the “State of Italian Wine”. We go through the major regions and discuss current vintages, futures and what John is liking and not liking from the region. We also get into a few regions that fly a little under the radar but produce fantastic wine and is some cases at a great value.
John’s website is – https://johnfodera.com/
Twitter (X) – @JohnMFodera
Facebook – John M Fodera
[Music] [Music] hey everyone welcome to another episode of food wine and whiskey I am Rob your host and going to have a fun conversation all about Italy today the wines of Italy maybe you want to take a a trip to Italy and you’d like to visit some wineries we’re going to have that conversation as well and kind of what the best approach would be and my guest today is not unfamiliar with the show he’s been on a few times John foda how you doing John Rob I’m good it’s great to be back thanks for coming back I know we uh we do this a lot but I I I always want to uh give you the opportunity to uh let everybody know be and just in case they haven’t listened to your uh your previous episodes uh but who you are and and kind of what you do and and where PE where people can find you yeah yeah thanks uh pleasure to be here again as I said it’s always a always fun conversation so uh yeah I’m the uh owner and publisher of the website tusin Vines and uh you can find me at my uh name URL it’s www.j.com j n f o d r a.com and uh all my content go goes out there there is some exclusive content that I push out um only to subscribers of my newsletter uh which is free and and the website will prompt you for that if you so desire and then um beyond that I’m on the three what I consider the three main channels of of social media I guess is Facebook um Instagram and Twitter SLX now yeah X that’s a new one for us John yep I I still call it Twitter I mean it’s just a different logo to me as far as I know it hasn’t changed its name just its logo but who knows no no it it actually changed its name which is interesting that’s another topic but uh yeah now you’ll notice it’s not a retweet it’s a repost and all that kind of stuff yeah I saw that yeah I didn’t know you were on Instagram I gotta find you there I know on on Twitter is where I uh have you know found you and connected and we kind of and Facebook but I did not know you were on Instagram I got to look you up there yeah I mean it’s mostly just obviously pictures but um I do put links to the articles in there even though I know that um you can’t click directly which is something I wish they would fix yeah um but you can always you can always copy and paste it um but yeah no whenever I have an article that has um you know a lot of pictures in it especially if it’s you know food and and and wine related you know less so much travel but um I definitely put him put them over there yeah well today’s topic we’re you know obviously you’re the Italian guy right you you you write about these wines you do a great job covering the producers of Italian wines and uh I thought it would be good to just kind of get kind of a the the state of Italy you know related to Wine what’s going on there kind of what what are you liking what you’re seeing in in Italy what are you thinking about current releases um of wines that are out things that are going to be coming that you’re excited for maybe uh maybe some things that you’re a little disappointed with that maybe they changed some rules or did something over there that you’re not happy with but just kind of talking about the state of Italian wine right now yeah yeah and you you hit all all the above there with with those suggestions for sure um I think one thing I would say um let just High overview um very basic you know 2020 and 2021 were probably two of the best vintages that I can remember in a long time for Italian whites so when you find your your vermentino your veras even pgos uh and then you even have your you your more esoteric varieties like the whites from um lugana in in lumbardy um they’re really showing very very well and they’re not expensive you know they’re perfect for summer they’re perfect for lighter you know Fish seafood shellfish pastas things like that they’re just really pretty wines so I think that would be the first thing I would note because those those wines are out in the market all over the place now let me let me ask you about two that I’ve been enjoying what you think about them which are uh Suave Classico and gab deave yeah I mean there Suave is from Veno obviously you know a lot of people um you know have a bad impression of suave because of the you know the 70s the phrase Suave Bola you know people people associate you know Suave with bolo like you know Kodak with film or you know whatever Band-Aid with Johnson and Johnson you know but there are some really really fine Suave out there and um even the ones from Bola I mean I had it’s been a while now it was probably seven or eight years ago I had a dinner with the the wine maker from Bola and yeah they still have their their mass produced kind of you know high volume wines that are you know drinkable but not special but they also have a higher range where they’re really doing nice things and you know puran and Genie uh are two of the best producers of suave and the wines are really really great um gab toave same thing I mean even even more esoteric right that’s the corz grape um it’s uh you know high acidity high minerality high Citrus notes in that wine but very clean that’s piedmont’s you know white you know in addition to the Ares but right um not a lot of people have arace is very very small production yeah those are been just some but I’m I’m glad you brought up whites first because I think um when when most people the Casual Wine Drinker obviously they know Italy as being this you know classic region for for great wines but I think the whites really go under the radar and uh aren’t as appreciated you know obviously Peno greo is out there and that’s probably the most famous um but I think Italy has some fantastic white wines that more people need to be exposed to yeah yeah and if you travel there um and you go to wineries you’ll you’ll see like perfect example and and we’ll get to my my tour later but when we were on a tour last year we visited Castello Monsanto and they tasted us on this 100% chardonay and it was you know out of this world I mean and I don’t really drink a lot of Chardy at all but I mean this was you know no no Oak no creaminess no butter but it was a full bodied you know viscous you know flinty you know it was like a chab you know it was in that style wow and you know it really turned some heads and you know being what it is I think it’s you know maybe it’s $45 retail and you know I don’t know I don’t dabble in Chev Le but I know they’re a lot more than that yeah they can get up there for sure so my point is you know a lot of times you know you don’t see those wines you know at retail but when you when you’re on a tour and you go to a producer you know you’ll see these these wines um so they do make them uh they just don’t have a lot of it yeah well let’s uh where would you like to start in in what region if we went through kind of the regions and what you’re seeing there obviously I I would say let’s finish in Tuscany because that’s that’s your I’m gonna call that your your sweetheart your your baby uh that’s what you you love all of Italy but that’s that’s kind of where you uh you really enjoy is true yeah it is true yeah I have my my you know part of my Heritage there my you know I’ve Got Friends there and and now that I’m I’m traveling there more often I have a lot of a lot of ins there that that I have to a lesser extent in other places but I think what I would start with um is you know we we’ll talk about peed for a minute and and tie that into the current conditions on the ground um you know related to this growing season I won’t say Harvest yet um because they obviously haven’t started picking grapes um and then we’ll talk about you know the the broader um wines from pedmont let’s say so Baro and barbaresco um just now I saw yesterday um some 2019 barolos were showing up um in the shop at Market I was kind of surprised um but there’s 2018s out all over the place and 2019s are coming now um 2019 was a great great vintage um almost universally across Italy and it’s definitely something that um you know consumers want to look for um 18 is um the 18s that I’ve had whether it’s been from from Kean or or Montalcino or or pedmont um they can be very nice wines but there’s not there there’s a lot of unevenness to them you know they’re it’s almost like 60% good 40% you know not so great so I think that um that requires a little bit more um you know kind of research digging into you know somebody like me you know whose palet that you align with what they like and 2019 I think is a safer vintage to just buy and you know try one now and maybe go back and then put some in your seller was that because was 18 a little warmer 18 was um well it started um fairly cool in the winter and Springtime and they had a lot of rain in the winter which was great um so they had a little bit too much rain at the end of the spring so the one one issue was um the mil like you know mil doing fungus on the vines so so they were battling with that and then when it was like um I guess about mid June late June the temperature ratcheted up to like 105 degrees and it basically you know stayed there for a month wow um so yeah there there was a little bit of um uneven ripening in the grapes um you know I’m putting together a report now on the 18 brunellos which are you know theoretically they could have been you know released in Jan anuary but they’re just kind of trickling into the market now you know in full force if you will and so those articles are going to be coming out and I’m finding a lot of really nice wines but I’m finding some wines where you can tell you know um they’re just a little bit dried out you know they have a like an herbal character to them a stemness you know a green stemness to the tannins um like it just didn’t get quite quite there um and I don’t sense either that the 18s whether whether it be the BOS I’ve tried or the Brunello that they’re you know really made for the seller these wines they’re so Charming right now they’re so aromatic the good ones they’re they’re aromatic they’re juicy juicy they’re fresh um you know nice fruit flavors and they just you know give a lot of enjoyment right now which is great because I mean if you’re if you’re sitting on 15 and 16 you know that’s what you’re going to want to do is sit on those for a little while and I think you know 19 will probably be for Brello at least it’ll be another vintage you know that’s going to be age worthy so you need stuff to drink and you know 17 was an up and down year as well so and you know folks who who don’t know most probably do but we’re talking about vintages where they’re going wait that’s like five years ago and there’s a reason we’re talking about those vintages those are the current vintages that’s true that’s true yeah so B is a little bit earlier than Brunello bolo obviously the 19s are or released so um I think Bara only needs a minimum of um really three years but I think most people will show you you know four years um um total aging yeah granello is still five years so Brello is only allowed to be released uh in January the 5th January after the Harvest um so what are we we’re in August now so the Bolos and 19 have just started showing up so I mean what is it it’s it’s four years basically if you if you consider you know they probably harvest in October so it’s a little under four years yeah those are just the rules you know you’ve got to have Aging in Oak you’ve got to have Aging in Bottle yeah and for us who enjoy wine like we do uh it’s it’s not a bad thing to get a little age on something when when you’re getting it although you know those can to your point a lot of those uh a lot of vintages can still be selled for for quite a bit of time and still enjoyed but uh it’s nice to get a little age on those yeah yeah and I always make the distinction when people ask me you know there’s a difference difference to me at least between a a wine lasting in the seller and improving in the seller you know if you want your 2018 brunellas you buy you know I don’t know you have a favorite label you buy six of them you know and you drink one a year for six years or something like that that’s not going to be a problem you know the wine will you the wine will be fine you know as long as you you you seller it correctly you store it correctly um um but I don’t see that these wines will improve you know whereas sometimes um you know you you need that to to um you know have the tannins kind of soften and and meld with the fruit together or a lot of times wines are just not that aromatic when they’re young um you know they you know brella whenever I go to these large trade tastings and I sit and taste you know 50 or 60 Brello after a while you know my notes say you know Aromas of fruit and Spice you know fruit and spice fruit and spice you know that’s all that they have you know so it’s hard to to pick out you know more complexity than that but that that happens with age um but I think you know for example the the 18s are the perfect case in point yeah I enjoy them I always say John uh and you kind of told me this a couple years ago and I really believe that with the seller you know that sometimes wines can improve but sometimes wine can just last and they don’t get better but what I have found over the the years is that wine can be good young if you like that type of profile providing that the tannins aren’t too big and it’s imbalance and things like that but to your point the wine can still change in the seller uh where the fruit might soften the tannin still might get a little softer but you get start to get some of those tertiary notes uh that come and if you like that profile there’s nothing wrong with letting that happen in bottle and then enjoying the wine when you get that kind of profile um but I also know people who don’t like that profile and they want you know a more fresher wine the fruit to shine a little bit more a little bit more crispness to it definitely I mean definitely I mean it’s all a matter of personal preference you know I mean the one to your example the one characteristic I always find whenever I’m drinking a a tuskin Cabernet and if it’s 100% Cabernet absolutely but it could even be like a 70 or 60% Cabernet blend the longer I let that sit and I find this in Tusk I don’t find it in Napa I don’t find it in Bordeaux as it ages you know and I’m talking maybe 10 15 years from vintage it really gets a a real strong leathery component um you know when you kind of smell that saddle bag or or or or a worn bomber jacket you know like beaten on a rock something like that you know and uh I find that all the time and it and it’s not just you know one specific wine I find it across producers so I think it’s just the way you know that Cabernet reacts in Tuscany you know I mean everybody says oh you know Cabernet it’s an international varietal I like to have you know only indigenous Italian grapes and whenever I talk about that with a wine maker they say well Cabernet has been in Tuscany for 70 or 80 years you know this is this is an Italian now this Cabernet with an Italian accent you know that’s what they say yeah you know and that’s you know and it is and it’s different it’s cabernet from Tuscany or Italy is different from Napa it’s different from Bordeaux it’s different from Chile um you know but that’s also what makes wine fun is that you know that I always tell people you know they go I I just like Cabernet Salon well okay you like it from Napa but have you had it from bordeau or Tuscany or Chile or other places you know because it is it can be different and unique and what makes wine fun for me right and and depending on who you talk to that’s either the the beauty or or the ugliness of Cabernet right it’s easily grown and it’s easily adaptable you know where you can’t put you know Pino Noir in Chile and you don’t put you know nebiolo in in I know some people do but I don’t like it you don’t put nebiolo in California you know in Napa um yeah it just doesn’t grow up so there are some issues like that but you know cabern a Mero those are not one of them so back to pedmont are you uh you have kind of the same opinion of the barbaresco that are coming out um yeah you know I I think um vintage wise yeah the 18s and 19s are going to be the 19s are probably going to be better wines um barbaresco is a little bit of a LoveHate relationship for me I find that when they’re good they’re you know they’re really great and a lot of times they just leave me kind of with like a you know a meh sort of attitude and you know the the best ones that I’ve had for whatever reason or wines I don’t see at retail very much and I’m talking about like um um prunotto or jaosa um Marquees de grai um you know there the one that we see probably the most often is a protator Del barbaresco yes and they’re you know but their regular barbaresco to me I mean it’s just kind of light you know when they make that wine it’s it’s probably would be interesting for people that gravitate more toward Pino Noir I mean to me that’s what it’s kind of like which isn’t my favorite you know wine to drink um but when they do their um their single Vineyard Reserve barbaresco those are much different and they’re very good there’s seven or eight of them I think um and then you know Dominico clerico is another one who makes great um barbaresco and Baro and I don’t see his winds around very much anymore so I don’t know you know bolo is a lot like um burgundy in the sense that there are is not a big area um and I know sometimes in burgundy you’ve got you know one great Vineyard that might be owned by 20 different families um it’s a same in Bara where they could literally just own you know one or two Vine rows um and sometimes they you know lease land you know lease fruit from The Vineyard um but it’s you know kenoi is a great example of that there’s I don’t know how many um families that farm The kenoi Vineyard um but it is uh it’s a special place you know one of one of the best Vineyards ever for for um Barum well I know when we talk about peont we we think Baro and we think barbaresco the nebiolo grape um but in that region I I think there’s some some you know and I bring those two up because a lot of times they can have uh you know a cost to them where people go they’re a little pricey but uh I also think in that region there’s some great wines that don’t cost as much you can get some good value one that I really enjoy especially with pizza one of my favorite pizza wines is Barbara deast uh do you have some other Wines in the region that you enjoy that uh kind of are a value by yeah yeah I mean I think that um well you’re you’re right on with Barbara I mean I I don’t think it matters um if it’s from ay or from Alba I think the the only difference there is to me the ‘s um Barbara from a is a little more High toned a little bit more acidic uh which is not a problem if the fruit is balanced you know and the the barbaras from Alba I think are a little heavier a little rounder they they don’t have that quite have that same acidic punch but any good you know barolo producer will make you know a good Barbara I mean that’s what the P Mones are drinking every day you know Barbara doletto maybe even Galino which is really um you know obscure um we actually just got one in at the shop where I consult and I haven’t had a chance to try it but it was a 2021 so I mean Galino is is super light wine it’s it’s like a it’s like a a bardolino from Veno um but just to get back to the to the other I mean I’ve always loved deletto I’m partial to them a little bit more than Barbara okay but it’s the same thing I mean it’s a a very fruity fresh you know Black Plum and spice and licorice kind of driven wine very fresh very juicy and um you know easily you know it’s only meant for early consumption you know so you find now you’ll find you know 2019s 2020s just grab them and drink them up like you said Pizza Pasta you know paninis out on the barbecue you could chill them down a little little bit you know they’re just really food friendly wines and uh again the bet you know the best ones come from the you know mostly the the bolo and and barbaresco producers will make a good example yeah when you find a good producer they do they do a good job across the line and you can find them uh John I I find some really good ones sub 20 bucks but no more than you know 30 you’re getting a great wine yeah I would agree with that too I mean you could definitely there are a couple of um crazy producers that that you know sell an 880 $90 Barbara which you don’t even need to go there um no but you’re right I mean 20 $25 is probably the Sweet Spot yeah absolutely and uh yeah that’s a that’s a really good point and and you know like I said they’re versatile too I mean that’s you know you have a Baro or barbaresco even it’s it’s something that you I mean you could you could have it with a a bowl of pasta if you wanted to but that’s a it’s a substantial wi you know usually heavier Foods you know in the colder months but you know doletto you can drink it 12 months out of the year and I like I like them too John because they’re that uh when we start talking about the value buy uh if you’re having a dinner with you know six people eight people over and you want to put a few bottles on the table you can have plenty of wine for you know you’re not going to break the bank so to speak yeah exactly yeah so let’s let’s move over to the uh the the Veno are you an armaron I don’t know if you and I have ever talked about it are you a fan of of the wines from the venito um I don’t drink them very much so I guess the answer would be no um but it’s you know it’s not that I dislike them it’s you know there’s there’s two what’s well how do I say it I guess there’s two basic wines that come from Veno I’m talking red wines OB viously there’s there’s Suave and and things like that but so there’s valella and then there’s amaron and if you want to go with um you know valella like rasos um you know being a third category we could talk about that too but uh and bardolino comes from there but like I said bardolino is probably you know the the lightest cheapest you know kind of Tumblr wine you know that you would drink in a Pizzeria and just to have wine on the table not to really think about it they make a ton of Bolino there um there are great producers there you know most of the valella um is made they’re all indigenous grapes um is um oh goodness I just had Corvina corvinone rondella um those are the grapes they use for those wines um every once in a while you’ll see you know um a wine that maybe they throw a little Cabernet in there um but vichella I think suffers you know the doc as a whole suffers from a lot like what um keante used to suffer from um years ago is I think people just view it as as an inferior or lower quality wine and a lot of the best producers Alini is the perfect example you know they had two they have two wines which are widely available and both delicious is pazo delator they call one the other one is called Lola which means the crow and both of those wines used to be vichella Doc and you know they just didn’t like you know what they were forced how they were forced to produce that wine in order to make it be a doc doc so they just left you know the doc and you still you still find Alini pazo delatore and lolla it’s the it’s they’re they’re making the best wine that they can but it’s just an IGT now which is you know table wi just yeah it’s just a in theory right a lower class of wine but it just all it says is it guarantees that the wine is from Veno and nothing else right um so you know my my problem with those wines and and not valella but so much with raso and amaron I mean amaron are huge huge wines and I have a difficulty ever pairing them with food uh you know the I did a report uh an article on it a long while ago probably like in maybe 2016 or 2017 and back then I remember clocking in some wines with you know 16.5% alcohol that’s big and it was yeah it’s huge and it’s like I I feel like they’re just you know like you want to go outside and and and shovel snow and come into the house and sit by the fireplace with a glass of amaron and some Gorgon Ola cheese and some roasted nuts and that’s kind of like what I do with it I mean to me they’re they’re just not they’re heavy you know full-bodied really rich wines and they’re difficult to pair with food now that has changed a little bit I think in the past I’ll say 10 years there’s a producer um called Sartor uh D Verona and he makes his range of of amaron they’re much more approachable when they’re young they’re much fresher and I don’t want to say they’re lighter but they’re just they they’re more Nimble on your palet and they’re easier to enjoy with food his wines are actually really great um and the and the process you know people are going why are they so big and so so bold like they are but the process for making that that wine is kind of where that comes from isn’t it yeah I mean it’s that that’s definitely so they they you know when normally when you’re making any wine right you just you pick the grapes you crushed them you leave the juice you know in contact with the skins in the must for however long you want but what they do with the amaron is they before they do that they they allow the grapes to dry a little bit right so they they turn almost toward raisins you know they lose a lot of their juice content so if they pick you know the grapes for amaroni maybe they’re picking let’s just say mid to late October they may not Crush The Grapes till sometime in December so and what I mean you can imagine how sweet a raisin is as compared to a fresh grape and how they taste differently and how how the raisins concentrate the flavor yeah exactly and that’s that’s exactly the kind of wine that you get when you do that um I mean amaron is a misnomer you know it’s it’s because Amaro in Italian is means bitter um so amaron I forget where it comes from I don’t know if it comes from um amoral from the sense of of Love or love of Labor I don’t remember the story but it’s a misnomer because they’re not bitter in any way me it literally means big bitter one okay Amon but it’s it’s not at all um and then the repasos is the same way so with a vichella when it says repaso on the label what that means is they take the vichella juice and they repass it repaso they repass it over the must of Amon so after they finish making the amaron they run off the juice and they have the amaron must there and they dump the Vella juice on top of the amaron must and they let that sit there for a while and the theory is you know that it it picks up some character from the amaron must and those are some of the nicer wines to me because they have more substantial you know complexity than a alella does but they’re much more approachable and drinkable than an amaron is and they’re also cheaper I mean that’s the other problem with amaron I mean almost every one in the shop where I consult it’s at least $50 and they go easily well up into you to $100 um you know they they age them for a while you know we have 2017s on the Shelf which is the current release you know so it takes a long time to make them it’s labor intensive and they’re very expensive yeah but there are people that love them I can tell you that much oh I know a few I know a few and uh yeah to me they they start to push and get towards almost like a uh you know a fortified wine without being fortified I mean they’re that rich exactly exact it’s exactly right yeah yeah I mean that’s that’s what you do with Port right I mean nuts cheese dried fruit yep I mean drink port I don’t drink a lot of Port either you know so well let’s head down south uh anything going on in P you that you like anything that you drink and enjoy down there I just had uh a wine from Pula um and it’s right on um it’s probably still on the homepage of my website because we had just gotten it in so I pulled a bottle to taste and um what drew me to it um was the the docc which I had never heard of but also um the fact that it was awarded um gamb Roso trei which is three glasses um that’s gamb Ros ‘s highest award um to a wine and so it’s called bolo Nero and the doc is Castel Del Monti so Castel Del Monte is is an actual it’s a 13th century Castle um in pulia near the town uh the town’s name is Andrea um but The Vineyards that just kind of started springing up around Castell Del Monte um ended up taking the name of the castle for the docc so it’s a fairly small doc um and you know the the grape that um is grown there um is an indigenous grape called Naro detroia so they use that grape in the in the doc as well as elano which is you know also from basilicata and from CA um you know Alano is responsible for the you know tazzi wines of CA so when uh when I saw the treay car on that I grabbed the bottle and tasted it and it’s it was a 2019 it’s a great wi really pretty you know a lot of dark fruit flavors a lot of floral Aromas I mean I kind of described it as like a um a hyper you know like a more masculine version of like a doletto it was really really nice and I think it’s under $15 so wow I mean it’s yeah I mean it’s it’s a great little wine that’s awesome okay and then if we jump from there and we hit a couple of the island Sicily and Sardinia I’ve I’ve heard I’ve not had a wine from Sardinia but I’ve heard a few people talking about there there’s some good wines that can come from there oh I love Sardinian wines um you know the two um biggest producers there are probably argolis but the one I really love is is is called paa um they make a tremendous tremendous vermentino and then you know most of their wines on on Sardinia are indigenous Reds um so the name there they call it Canon now which is um granache um but they also have a grape there called Monica um and in addition to that um you know paa has other wines that they craft with um I think they use some Mero they definitely have some SRA um but they really stay true to the Sardinian roots of the of the canano and the Monica and what’s interesting about it is I think Sardinia um it’s a huge island people don’t realize um I believe it’s the largest province in Italy because it it spans from the almost Northern tip of latzio where Rome is and it goes all the way up to the southern border of Tuscany and it’s a huge island they have they have desert climate they have um we would call like a sub you know Mediterranean you know quote unquote normal climate and they also have snow you know so they’ve got everything there and and theyve and they’ve got the beaches but in Sardinia I think to Google it up I saw once I think the people live there longer on Sardinia than any other place in the world they have the long the the longest yeah life expectancy long life expectancy in the world wow and they and they were you know they were attributing that to the to the Mediterranean diet but that they eat a lot of um you know lamb and pork which they have on the island but they also attribute it to the Canon out to the wine um so it was it was very interesting and the one um the label that they use that they they make this grape um from Monica they have um the label branding that Paula uses is called fiori which means flowers so the red fiori is made from Monica and the white fiori is made from vermentino and some other things but the fiori the actual picture is of a flower that is indigenous only to Sardinia it’s not found anywhere else in the world um so they they do some crazy crazy things there but the the wines are super food friendly um and really really nice are they distributed pretty well here in the states Paula from s yeah Paula is um they are brought in by um banville and Jones okay I know BV okay banville I mean they have um Donatella chanelli colini Brunello they have toini um you know Kean keti Classico um I know there are people um you know from my Twitter followers that are in Houston down by you that they can find toini easily okay so I think it you know if you wanted to uh if you wanted to try that and try them I can probably make that happen yeah I’d like to for sure how about Sicily I I’ve been drinking a lot of Sicilian wines uh over the last couple of years and uh really like what they’re there what they’re doing there how how do you enjoy sisy wies uh I like them a lot I mean that’s a big part of my Heritage you know my father’s family was from there um but the the move like I I I view Italy as um in two two halves kind of like you have the the etno wines you know you’ll see them label etar Roo yeah um they’re made from you know nurel mascalese and nuro capucho to indigenous Sicilian grapes for my tastes you know the wines on Etna um obviously it’s a volcano there’s a lot of volcanic soil there um to me there are always a little bit like white peppery and Ashy and Smoky underneath the fruit and the fruit is to me it’s just very light bodied it’s not something that I usually enjoy drinking but Mount the osas are super hot now um ever since um well not ever since but partially I think with when during the pandemic when Stanley Tucci did that show searching for Italy yes he went and visited you know Ariana okup piny and and she’s a producer on you know ET n Roo and they kind of took off from there I mean to me like I said they’re they’re just not my cup of tea but on on sicy as well on the let’s see on the on the western side of the island um you know planeta is there Donna fugata is there two two super producers and they’re pretty large um they have some osas as well but they also have um the grape I really like is narod deava so Naro deava is another Sicilian indigenous grape but that makes you know medium to full bodied wines you know fresh but they’re more substantial um and again they use Mero they use sarra not not different from not unlike Sardinia and then they also have you know a range of of white wines um as well whether it’s you know Chardon um they use a sicilian grape called gillo um g r i l l um that makes some pretty nice white wines but that’s what I tend to gravitate to when I’m looking for um you know local flavor you know okay is there another before we get to Tuscany is there another reason you’d like to uh hit on real quick I mean I you know I don’t really think so I mean I think what you’re seeing is more and more regions are trying to make you know more higher quality wines you know I think even in the South you know we talked about you know pulia briefly you know but you know even Calabria where the chiro designation is um you know and you know Sicily and and comp too I mean you know Alano can be tweaked in in many different ways where it can be a lighter fresher wine uh you find that from basilicata where it has you know Alano delour um that’s kind of like an easy drinking meaty embodied wine and then you have versions of Alano and compia that are um you know big and bronny wines you know a lot of people refer to it as the bolo of the South I didn’t I don’t really ever understood that um comparison I mean to me they’re they’re not anything like Baro um but one of the best wines one of the wines I love um is a wine called Monte Von o this from compana um and it’s 60% Cabernet uh and 40% Alano and to me it’s just a delicious delicious wine and I I was out in a restaurant in Manhattan a while ago a couple maybe a month ago and and they had the 2012 on the wine list at a very reasonable price and you know we got it and it was still you know Ultra dark in the glass I mean it was just a beautiful beautiful wine drinking so well it’s you know 11 years old like it’s you know 11 months old um and it it was great it was absolutely great so I mean that’s where the other part of my Heritage for my mother was from outside of Naples so I do pay attention to comp as well okay um so there’s some nice wines coming out of there well well let’s dive into your favorite and my favorite region Tuscany and and all the different wines that we can can get you know through there and and I I’m still uh you know there’s some regions I’m probably going to bring up and you’re going to tell me it’s either in Tuscany or not and and I’m not an expert on that but I’m sure you’ll enlighten me but uh let’s start with just Kean and and what you’re thinking about what Kean is doing Kean Classico Reserva and and everything that’s going on with Kean yeah I mean I think the biggest thing that has just come out now with um Kean is or really keti Classico is this move to um further differentiate the um grape growing regions that that are on the labels of the bottle so I think it was back in 2014 they added Grand cion to the top of the Kean Classico pyramid so now I think starting with I think it was the 2024 vintage I forget um the grand cion producers will be allowed to um add an extra differentiation on their label so you’ll see wines now that will say you know castellina and Kean or panzano or Castel noovo Baroda where that means that they’re they’re just telling a consumer where their grapes are grown um so like anything else you know in Italy it was fairly political um with the consorcio um but the the gavan manetti is the is the owner of um fontodi uh in panzano and he is the current president of the consortio so he was spearheading this and he did a really great job kind of getting everybody on board which and I think with the minimum amount of confusion um but the um the designation will only be allowed right now for GR cion wines and I think they’re they’re talking about extending it to as far down as keti Classico so we’ll see if that uh materializes okay quality of wines coming out from there current vintages what do you like um pretty good buy them up I would buy up the 19s when you see them for Kean Classico for sure I’ve had a lot of 2017 classicos that I thought were nice because it was a hotter year even though it was super hot the producers that did well um produced a nice wine but when we were talking about 2018 at the outset the 2018 wines that I’ve seen in Brunello um have been very nice wines you know for the most part the 2018 County classicos gr Salon I’ve tasted they haven’t um reach that same level of enjoyability that the brunellos had I think 2018 was a harder a harder year in Kean in Kean Classico than in Brunello and I think the wies show that so I’ve been very um very careful approaching 2018 Classico okay and the N you know the 19s are totally different wines they’re just I would buy them up you know without hesitation okay and then if go ahead I was going to say a lot of them are not released yet I mean some of them are um some you know it’s very strange what producers do so the minimum amount of Aging you can put wines you know into the market um within two two and a half years I mean we have probably keti classic goes in the shop everywhere from I would say 18 we have some 18s and some 20s believe it or not we may we may have some 19s but with the producers I get the sense are holding those back because they’re better wines you know they want to age them a little bit more um you know last year when we were in Tuscany on my tour we tasted 28 uh 2019 keti classicos from a couple producers still in Barrel um and I know you know at the time we were doing that they were already selling the 18s you know in bottle in their shops wow so they’re they’re definitely you know they hadn’t even been bottled yet um so I’m I’m looking forward to to catching up with that when we’re over there this fall because uh I think those are going to be wines you know you could just go in and and buy you know a mixed case of you know three bottles from four different producers and have some really great you know drinking and uh you know when we think this region you you can’t not talk about uh berell what are your thoughts on berell what they’re doing current releases yeah I mean one of the things um I just did on it’s right now is the first article on my website was I just did a um an updated my tastings on the Brello producer IL poon but what I did was I put um I had the wine maker on there with me for an interview as well and I put the issue to you know my readers on Twitter I said you know what I’ve interviewed a million wine makers I know what I want to ask them but what do you want to know so I got all my questions from my readership and put them to the wine maker and he was great you know and you know the issues in Brello are really not um what I’ll call critical issues you know there there’s basically two two debates you know or two discussions basically one is the global warming the climate change and how they’re dealing with that uh and the other one is um the constant discussion about whether they should start you know sub zoning subdividing the Brunello own ah like what we were just talking about you know in Kean you know and although every time I bring this up with a wine maker they shake their head no at me you know it would just confuse people it it would wouldn’t do you know everybody knows what Brunello is they don’t need more words on the label it wouldn’t help the consumer it would just cause confusion they all say that to me to a man but then this discussion never seems to die so I don’t know who’s putting this forward and who’s driving the bus so to speak but I’m definitely going to talk about that when I go over there in October and and see what people are thinking because I you know and monino I mean it’s a small area I mean for as many producers as there are um it’s kind of goes both ways even in that small area there are there’s so many different altitudes and so many different soil types but the area itself is pretty small you know it’s about I think I read once it’s twice size of Manhattan so I mean if you didn’t have traffic lights and traffic you could zip from one end of Manhattan to the other in under 10 minutes in a car you know so it’s not huge um my my first thought when you when you when they say that they don’t want to confuse I I’m I’m guessing they’re talking about the consumer but when I think about Kean and how they classify those I think it helps me as a consumer uh to be able to know you know one quality uh and most importantly quality um of what I’m buying and what I should expect in that bottle and sometimes Brello John I’ve gotten somewhere uh I’m like okay this is awful and and I don’t know why um there’s no way for me to know other than just knowing the producers and and having some idea of you know what they’re doing consistently year to year but trying something new it’s just kind of a a shot in the dark sometimes right yeah Ian I think you’re right the easy way is to find producers whose style that you like you know and then you stick with them and and you feel safe but when you do want to try something new I think the what I would suggest first is it’s probably pretty easy to find out where that producer is located and if they’re located in the same general area um then you’ll probably like their wines you know compare I mean in the same area as a producer that you that you do like that’s a good idea that’s a great idea you know because I mean the monino you can you can it it it’s shaped kind of like a a pyramid right where there’s three or four sides to the hill and the town kind of sits up top on the point and all The Vineyards surround the town and go sloping down the various sides of the mountain right so on the north side of the Town that’s where you find some of the oldest properties the original Brello producers if you will and over the years you know the Zone has increased a little bit um you know Vineyards have been planted where there was pastures or or crops some other crops so now you see you know producers that are at the bottom of the hill you know they’re still not very far away from one another you know maybe you’re only 10 or 15 minutes in a car you know to get to the center of town but you’re you could be as much as400 or 1200 feet lower than than the people near the town yeah so I mean that has you know a profound impact on the way that your grapes ripen and when you H when you harvest um how much hotter it could be you know down there even on the same day um you know how much um different the soil varies um you know and also in terms of even the drainage you know when you’re when you’re in a lower lying Vineyard but the biggest problem I think is so for example you go up to the top of the hill on the way to the town and you go near uh the producers Le ragn you go by tente they’re kind of um all clustered up there on the top of the mountain pojo antio that’s basically where their grapes are but then you have there are other producers who have okay well I own a Vineyard that’s 1,200 ft on the north side of town and I own a Vineyard that’s 300 F feet on the southwest side of town and I own another Vineyard that’s you know 150 feet on the Eastern side of town and I blend I make my Brunello from all three of these Vineyards they’re all coming from three different complete places so what am I supposed to put on my label and if your if all your fruit comes from where you know my home Vineyard is and you can put you know let’s say you know monos on the label but then you’re telling me well I can’t put monos on the label because I’m getting my fruit from two other places now I’m at a disadvantage you know so I think that’s the biggest argument that the producers are having and you know for wine people like us and the people you know I deal with and that listen to your show um I think they would view it as you know the more information they have the better but I think you know for the average consumer um it would probably be confusing so I don’t I don’t know if it’s ever going to get done uh I think that’s a fair point I think for one people like us we want as much information about what we’re getting as possible but I think you your point about the person just going in wanting to buy a Brello it it could make it way more confusing for them yeah there’s already so many you know yeah in the shop in the shop where I consult that we have Brunell from $29.99 to to $150 and you know what’s the different that’s the question I always get why is this so different yeah you know is this they point to the $30 is that bad you know they don’t the answer is no it’s different you know yeah you know you may love it you know but um and part of the enjoyment for wine for me and I know people that I know is and I think you’re probably like this too John is finding those wines that punch up you know that are that are $30 $40 that you go right I’d have paid 65 for this but I’m glad I didn’t you know those kind of wines because look if I’m spending $1 for a bottle $150 for a bottle it damn well better be good right I mean yeah yeah absolutely so well and that’s what I think you know that and you’re right I mean I think that is part of a problem when especially with Brunello I mean I I rarely [Music] am what should I say wow I mean I’ve had those kind of wines you know there Brunello at at its highest it could be 100 and a quarter 150 there are some very there are some rare terrified wines that are going beyond that that I just won’t even get into but I taste those wines and I’m like yeah these are really great you know these are great but is it twice as good is it three times as good you know what it’s hard to tell yeah you know and I’ve been you know when I went I got news for you wait till you see I’m almost done writing it my my part one of 2018 Brunell I’ll let you in on a little secret I went to Ben venuto Brello in the city um back in November um yeah November and it was tasting a bunch of wines and one of the first wines I was like wow this wine is awesome and I knew the wine and the only reason I knew it I had never ever seen it in the United States but I seen it in Italy in mcino and I knew what it cost and I’m like this is a steel you know this wine is a steel and you know I got um when it became available in Italy like as early as February of this year I bought myself some because I I I knew it was so inexpensive and I knew how good it was and when I opened one up for my coverage here same exact experience as in November the wine is just absolutely Stellar it’s a gorgeous gorgeous wine uh and it may be one of the only 18s that I buy um you know that’s you know I’m probably won’t buy a lot of 18s for myself um but this wine is so good and um so just wait next week this coming week I might be putting that out okay good I can’t wait to see that yeah absolutely but I mean I think it costs um we’re getting off the track a little bit now but I think it’s 30 31 or 32 Euro and from the just under 40 bucks for us yeah not not even and then with with the discount code that I get from the shop my readers can use my discount code to get 10% off you know so yeah I mean it’s really it’s really a steal yeah you can’t beat to that at all I’m looking forward to that when you when you release that then uh let me ask you about a wine that I really enjoy in that region and I I think over the last few years it’s getting at least where I’m at it’s getting kind of some more notoriety people are starting to uh drink it more recognize it appreciate it more which is and you might go it’s Rob’s been that way for a long time you just weren’t seeing it but ven no de mon yeah I’m a fan yeah I mean and that’s that’s the uh the classic conundrum right you know for for some reason you know Veno no is is always tied to Brunello in terms of which one is better you know but I always try to get people away from that I’m like you know don’t even think that way you know there I’ve had Veno no you know that have been produced in such a way that I thought were you know better than Brunello and and and vice versa it’s they’re just different you know and you know Veno noil is made from a clone of sanv called Prolo genti um but by law it only needs to be 70% um so you’ll see um you know producers using I don’t know 80 to 85% San of aay and some throw in 15% % Mero now how can you compare that wine to a Brunello which is 100% sanes by law it just doesn’t work right you know that’s that’s my only um my only quam with Veno no it’s kind of like Kean Classico right where you kind of have to know what you’re buying because a lot of producers now in Veno noil like Ain is a huge producer they’re one they’re 100% San now um Pano which I love um I think is 85% San ofay they put in 5% canolo and 10% relo but we have the 2019 in the shop and it’s flying out it’s it’s an absolutely delicious wine I love it and it’s only $25 wow you know and the VIN I think is right around $20 um but there are other good producers there um you know kuchi um boscarelli day fatara Del cherro you can find these Wines in the United States you not without much of a a search and again you know saletto is another one beautiful Winery um they make a number of um Veno noiles at different levels they’re or organic they’re biodynamic uh you know it’s really some some really great wins that are going there um going on there and we’re going to go uh we’re going to go to Veno no montiano for sure on on the tour in October and we’re going to be touring um kuchi and and boscarelli um and then we’re going to stop at the shop in town for Pano has a shop there um with all their offerings so it’s going to be I look forward to showing people that too because they don’t they don’t realize it they don’t know what it is yeah and and I’ve never had it trying to you know and I try to do this with any wine I drink I try to drink it and appreciate it for what it is not trying to compare it to something else so I’ve never really taken Ven noé and and tried to compare it to a burello or anything like I just want to enjoy it is it good am I liking what I have in the glass right right yeah well let’s confuse the folks a little bit we said v no de montiano that’s the town but another wine I enjoy I think is a great value John is Montano de bruso de Brut yep you’re absolutely right that is a great value and we should have mentioned that when you were talking about you know other areas where where you can find Value cuz um there are a lot of producers now in AB Bruto that are doing a much much better job uh with with montiano so the difference is you know quite Stark as you said so the wine from a Bruto is made from a grape called Montano that’s the name of the grape and that’s it so Montano de Bruto means montiano of ab Bruto nothing nothing more than that when you have the Veno anate the montiano that Montano in Tuscany is referring to the town of Montano so that is literally the noble wine of Montano so because of this confusion and and people in Montano the town were thinking that you know their reputation was being dragged down um by a Bruto you know always the the the the aristocratic North looking down at the South you know the peasants in the South they were like well we don’t want that confusion so they Lobby their consorcio to say hey let let us have the right to just put Veno noil on our label and that’s it so they finally got that passed you know so now it’s funny because I look at these labels and I’m like and I said to to this wine maker last year Andrea kuchi and I said you know after you guys went ahead and did all this I’m looking at your label and it still says Veno no Deano and I said ‘I know I know Pano says V noo and I know says that too and he goes you know what he goes I get it he goes but we wanted our wine to be tied to our heritage to this place we didn’t want to give that up so I’m like okay but you know I talk to people about that all the time you know they and then they get it confused yeah but they couldn’t be any more different yeah it could not be any more different but uh m Pano the grape the wines they make there are I think uh again I said it earlier of Great Value but a delicious wine as well it is they’re really delicious you know medium body lot of black fruits lot of blue kind of flowers violets and irises things like that um Valentina is a great producer they make a wine called spelt um that’s always reliable and it’s actually a a Reserva that they release um there’s a winery obviously aido Pepe has been in AB Bruto forever and he makes his Montano you know when it’s freshly released I think they’re maybe 60 or 75 and they age forever and they go up to$ three $400 a bottle for an aged one now I mean I’ve had his Montano um it is really good I I don’t I don’t like them when they’re that old I’ve had them old um but um yeah I mean they they do a really great job the wines are great high quality I just don’t think you know it’s worth or it’s necessary to pay that kind of Premium because you know the spelt is1 19.99 in the store um you know even the Zach aini in in in the the one that has that little clipping of the vine around the bottle um is only you know $15 um and that’s a you know that’s a decent little wine yeah um for for where it’s priced do you think and then there’s go ahead no I was going to um there’s a small um there’s a small area in a Bruto in the kind of like a it’s like a um Oasis if you will inside the montiano doc which is actually a doc G uh which most people don’t have any clue about that um and there are a couple producers in there um that are really making really great wines um one of them is called Cheri spinuzzi um really I just refer to it as you know enrio Cheri and he makes a wine in there you know a Monti Chan de Bruto and it’s called colini taram is where the docg is and it’s uh it’s a little bit heavier of a wine um than what you would expect from um I’ll say a normal um monano de Bruto so it’s colini uh teraman s t r a m a n e so that is a docg I’m trying to see here just by Googling real fast there’s not a lot of producers there um it’s hard to tell I don’t see anything that would be something I would have to look up yeah um but if you ever find one of those wines um I think you you can expect a little more character and and even still enrio cheri’s uh colini terman is um single Vineyard multiple chall The Roots I think it’s $30 you know but it’s when when you it’s still you know that’s what you said that is punching above its weight right right you would look at it you say geez $30 for a montiano but I’m like you’re getting a lot there do do you think uh that region doesn’t get the love uh and this just my opinion but or a thought I have because of the lack of Tourism around that area that you know a lot of folks who come to visit don’t maybe don’t make their way there so it’s funny you bring that up I mean I I don’t know the answer to that but I would suspect the answer is is yes and the reason why is because for the last two years um this past June and the June before that I was invited um by um I guess there’s a consort everybody has a consorcio so there must be a monab Chan de Bruto consorcio that you know was trying to you know bolster its reputation and they hired a PR firm and they invited me on a press trip you know one week press trip to go to AB Bruto and I mean you know every 10 minutes of this trip was you know booked to the itinerary I mean it just coincidentally just these I could couldn’t make it work you know with my schedule um but one of these days uh I’m going to say yes and I’m going to go um but they’re you know I don’t know how many people they’re inviting um probably not that many maybe 15 or 20 on on like a press junket because they’re talking about like one bus yeah um but it’s just it’s seven days you know pick you up in Rome zip you down to a Bruto you taste you go to dinner you taste again and then we bring you back you know so they’re they are trying to um definitely bring you know some more notoriety to the area so we’ll see you know I I just think like I said that’s an area where progress is slow you know everything about you know Italy happens slowly and you know keti keti Classico they’ve been around for centuries and they’re still tweaking things um you know AB Bruto was the land of mass-produced you know junk wine you know growing The Grapes selling them even to the north you know you know for you know keti producers would bottle it as you know table wine just to sell something else you know and you know the the people down south you know they or they’re often um you know it’s easy to grow grapes and do a good job and sell your fruit it’s another thing to have the um Capital intensive assets that you need to make wine you know right all the harvesting equipment you know the fermenters the stainless steel tanks the barrels the bottles you know for move things around you know they don’t have that seller yeah yeah yeah even just to have a seller so yeah well John the last wine I want you to touch on because it’s one I enjoy and I don’t know that a lot of people know about it uh I think the wine you know people like us do obviously but uh it’s a big wine and it’s sagrantino oh yeah the jewel of Monta Falco in Umbria yeah it is a enormous wine but it is a wine that I do enjoy I mean it is you know unlike amaron which we were talking about being enormous you know sagrantino is an enormous wine big fruit big tannins uh but you know the alcohol you know is tamed it’s just got big big structure um totally seller worthy I’m talking you know 15 to 20 years without breaking a sweat it’s one of the darkest Wines in the world that has the some of the most uh polyphenols of any grape in the world sagrantino so it’s growing in and around the area of Monta Falco which is in Umbria um and it takes a long time to ripen so they typically Harvest end of October early November um to get the ripness in the grapes but um that has been a region that’s you know does a lot of really good things and I mean the most um planted grape You know despite that we’re talking about sagrantino the most planted grape grae in Umbria is San so what the producers in in montifalco do is they have their second wine as well it’s called montifalco Roso so montifalco Roso is typically you know 60 to 70% San of aay with 20% sagrantino in there or maybe 30% sometimes they throw in 10% Mero so you get um an accessible easy enjoyable drinking wine in its youth but has a little bit more heft from that thir 30% of sagrantino that they put in there um whereas sagrantino deont Falco by law is 100% sagrantino nothing else uh and like you said those wines are huge but I mean for me I probably have maybe maybe half a case in my seller um have one or two bottles maybe a year you know but I love it with like a you know a Char grilled ribey I mean that’s a sweet spot man I mean it’s just gorgeous absolutely and it’s a big big big wine you know big tannins needs big food but that’s the way to go with that one well I do want to finish by uh I want a little bit of a tease because what I’d like to do John is have you back on and really dive into a conversation uh about touring you know in Italy on Wine Tours and really diving into that deep but uh to give a little tease let everybody know kind of what you do with Wine Tours uh you have something going on that you do annually I’ve got my fingers crossed that maybe you’ll start doing this uh more than one trip a year that you’ll get enough interest and enough uh want from folks to go over there that you’ll you’ll kind of up the trips that you do but uh let everybody know what you’re doing with your wine tours yeah no for sure and I think definitely the interest is there right now it’s just a matter of um you know Logistics between my partner and I but I mean two two trips a year to Tuscany is is very doable the interest is definitely there um so what we’re doing right now it’s called rustic Tuscany um it’s a 10-day tour um that is intensive to Tuscany and uh Tuscany you know the region of Tuscany but of tuskin wine and tuskin food so when we originally conceived this plan um this tour the idea was to show people you know The Rustic side of Tuscany and the untour side of Tuscany um you know we were trying to not have them even see a single tourist so things kind of went crazy with Co and now people are still traveling to Italy you know in September and October a lot more than they were until they kind of spend all the money that they haven’t had a chance to spend but when we were there last October it really wasn’t it really wasn’t crowded so what we do is you know my partner has uh has lived in Italy and has worked you know within the wine industry for 30 years um he had has you know connections on you know the accommodation side on the logistical you know travel side and I bring a lot of the you know the people from Twitter from Facebook but I also bring a lot of the winery connections um so you know we pick up and drop off in Rome and we have a we have a welcome dinner in Rome and we have a farewell lunch in Rome so you get to see a little smattering of the city um but other than that it’s 10 days in Tuscany which we divide um we spend about a week in marma and Brunello area and then we spend a week in um monano and the county Classico area so within the 10 days we probably do anywhere from 17 to 20 wineries uh and that sounds like a lot but the way that we um the way that we structure the each and every day um it’s not a crazy Pace at all um so last year was the first trip um we got phenomenal um views and comments on it which you can see on my website there’s a page there dedicated to the tour um so I started selling this October’s trip I think back in in March and I was sold out by sometime in early April so we only take 12 people maximum so you’re getting exclusive access you’re getting you know expert guides with a lot of attention you know individualized personalized attention you know we’re not you know Mario pillo we’re not Rome Florence Venice you know we don’t step foot in Florence on this tour that’s not the customer that we’re after we’re after wine Geeks you know and food Geeks and people that want to learn about wine and and see where it comes from and find out why it’s different find out why you know it’s farming when you get you know a five minute hail storm and it destroys your entire vintage you know for 10 months that you farmed for you know why that happens and what they do you know and the other thing that they get with you is access to the you know the farmers the folks putting their fingers in the dirt and and making these great bottles of wine yeah we were all over The Vineyards last year literally in the dirt touching the vine Rose talking to the agronomist talking to the wine makers you know when we were in montiano we went to kuchi and we were hosted by Andrea kuchi whose family has been in the house where he lives for over a thousand years and you know brought us he brought us inside his his Villa and we were in his living room you know tasting wine and you know my partner says you know to the to the tour group he says Hey guys he goes do you know who gets to come inside Andrea’s living room and taste wine with him he’s like yeah nobody he’s like you’re here because of John you know the average tour guest doesn’t come into Andrea’s living room and and walk around with him yeah uh you know so there this isn’t something that the average individual can just go on websites and and book for themselves right well that that’s a great little tease and John if you don’t mind I’d like to do another episode where we kind of follow up on this and and really dive into the tour and really kind of let people know exactly what they’re going to do and see and and kind of why do a wine tour versus you know hey me and my wife want to go I’ll just do something on my own you know where’s the the added value and and you know I think it’s pretty pretty obvious that uh you know your relationships your experience your expertise things like that that you’re not going to get on your own or where what drives that value but I think diving into it a little bit more would be a fun conversation really letting people understand what they’re going to get on a trip like this um I think that’d be a fun conversation to have no I agree with you I mean it’s it’s definitely a unique tour um you know as I say it’s just not some something that someone can arrange for themselves I mean we we take care of everything you know once you pay us we pick you up in Rome we take you to Tuscany we drop you off at your hotel in Rome the day before your flight home and if you don’t want to you don’t have to spend a penny once you pay us so you know we got accommodations three meals wine tasting fees tourism fees ground transportation it’s all taken care of we drive around in in Mercedes you know luxury Mercedes vans so you know you’re you’re going from Winery to winery you don’t want to be worried about drinking too much much or you know so those guys they they stay with us the entire day with the V yeah that’s awesome well we’ll come back on and really dive into this and and uh probably talk for an hour about uh wine touring in Italy and I’m I’m looking forward to that great yeah for sure yeah I would love to do that well thanks everybody for joining on this episode of food wine and whiskey and until our next episode enjoy your next por [Music]